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Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2008.02.14 20:09:00 -
[1]
A freighter jumps into a system unscouted. There is small hostile gang camping there. Say, a huginn and a raven.
The freighter pilot logs off before his cloak (from jumping) runs out. The huginn pilot points and double webs the freighter as the raven opens up.
After 1 minute, which is much too short a time for the raven+huginn to kill the freighter, the freighter disappears.
Any time the freighter pilot logs on he just checks scan as his ship emergency warps, if any hostiles are on scan he logs off before his emergency warp completes and never appears to be shot at.
WTF!. Seriously, who thought this was a good mechanic? Why is it that time after time game mechanics are forcing me to blob. Being in a gang that can't pop a freighter in 1 minute means that I lose a freighter kill.
Again, I'm just incredulous. Can anyone tell me why this is in the game? And if not, can we get some support for having it removed?
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Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2008.02.14 20:32:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 14/02/2008 20:34:57
Now that you mention it my minute did seem a bit short. I wrote it off to the thrill of an impending freighter ransom. Mind you, that thrill disappeared just as fast as his name dropped from local.
It's amazing how broken some of the current game mechanics are.
I can only assume that just because so few players know about and abuse these 'working as intended' mechanics that there hasn't been enough of an outcry to change them.
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Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2008.02.14 21:14:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 14/02/2008 21:17:27
Edited my first post to reflect proposed game mechanic changes and hopefully help fix this.
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Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:03:00 -
[4]
no.
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Posted - 2008.02.22 00:26:00 -
[5]
I'm just imagining this as a problem? No one else has issue with it?
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Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2008.02.28 20:38:00 -
[6]
Shameless bump for my own thread.
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Posted - 2008.03.04 13:46:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 04/03/2008 13:47:51
 Originally by: Drauqhk Shathet
I think what the OP is asking for is a way to force any other player into non-consensual PVP. Granted non-consensual PVP is part of the game and most people accept it and play accordingly, however, if a player really does not wish to play that way, they should have the option of leaving the game. Gate camps in particular are designed to offer one side an overwhelming advantage over the other and people who engage in gate camps seem to think that they are always entitled to win the engagement. In fact most gate campers will say that to defeat a gatecamp, either come in a blob (which will generate complaints in itself) or don't come at all. "Use a scout and if you see a gate camp, don't go there" I believe is the common refrain. All that really says is "play my way or don't play at all."
I for one do not see logging off to avoid an engagement to be an exploit. It may not be fun for all parties involved, but not being fun does not make it an exploit.
Now understand that I am a role player and if you catch me then I will play it out and die or not die as the situation dictates. That is how I choose to play the game. To say that others should not have the opportunity to choose, well I don't think that will be something that CCP will ever get behind.
That is not to say that this cannot be abused. If I am reading this thread correctly, then logging off is being used in combination with logging back on in a rapid cycle thus allowing a person to continue to play and simultaneously avoid an engagement. If this indeed what we are discussing then I think what you want is a log on timer. Allow people to escape your gate camp sir, but only if it because they choose to no longer play. Perhaps a 15 minute timer that starts when you clear the server that prevents you from logging back on would be more appropriate to prevent abuse.
What a load of rubbish.
Jumping an unscouted freighter into a low sec camp deserves to get that freighter popped. The fact that he is able to save it through abusing emergency warps and log offs is an exploit. It isn't him 'choosing his own way to play' rather it's him exploiting systems designed to protect people who get disconnected to avoid pvp in pvp areas.
You're arguing that it's fine that a player jumping a massive transport ship into low sec space should be able to avoid combat whenever he feels like doing so because 'people should be able to play as they want'.
Next you'll suggest that he should only be able to be engaged if he accepts a duel request and that all duels are only until structure.
Go log onto you lvl 99 elvish fluffer, equip your stout pole and mount your faerie horse. We'll be OK here without you.
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Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2008.03.06 14:35:00 -
[8]
Please don't log your super-expensive-faction-fitted capital or your loaded-to-the-brim-with-tech II-ships freighter off. Instead let us have the kill. Or... we'll.... tell people you log off and with that reputation you'll never find a corp in eve!!!
I wish.
No one relies on the honor system, rather most people either a) dont really understand logging or b) don't think of it until it's too late.
I'm all for increasing community awareness of this. In the short run the amount of log off abuse will increase. Then, hopefully, something will be done.
As it stands now, those with the know-how to reguarly abuse this get their capitals and freighters out of situations where they should lose them. Yet because those ships aren't super common in the day-to-day eve of most users, this exploit goes unchanged.
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Posted - 2008.03.06 20:40:00 -
[9]
shameless bump
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Posted - 2008.03.13 13:33:00 -
[10]
It's a tricky mechanic to get right, but it's quite obviously not working now.
Currently people can, and do, abuse log offs to get their ships out of combat situations that they have placed it in.
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Posted - 2008.03.13 19:58:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 13/03/2008 19:58:52
Originally by: Mae West
I do have one question to the OP. What about log on traps? You've posted about ways your prey avoid getting pew pewed but you haven't posted about the other game mechanic that some belive need to be changed.
I've only had it done a few times to me and we've always had warning of the hostile fleet magically disappearing out of the region despite not passing scouts. I don't have strong opinions here, it's out of my day-to-day experience, I'd prefer to leave it to people who have a better command of the issue.
Originally by: Mae West
I'm not a fan of the "logoffski" but I'm not sure about how to solve the issue tbh. What if i'm roaming 0.0 looking to kill ratters and have to log for the night. Clearly I'm not logging in a enemy station. Surely it's within the game mechanic for me to be able to log off at a planet and not worry about getting probed down.
You make a very good point. Let me try and provide a solution.
I think a big part of this could be solved by how and when the log off timer begins. I think the aggression check should happen after the emergency warp finishes, whether that finish is natural or due to warp scramming. Let's use the freighter from my OP as an example:
1)The freighter jumps, unscouted, through a low sec gate. The pilot disconnects (for whatever reason, deliberately or accidently, it doesn't matter). His freighter then breaks its cloak and begins to align for emergency warp.
1a)No one is on the gate. His ship finishes the emergency warp, Eve checks if he is player aggressed and either waits until 15 min after last player aggression or 1 minute, whichever is longer then makes him disappear regardless of debuff effects on him.
1b)There are hostiles on the gate. They point the freighter. This cancels the emergency warp. Now the emergency warp is done, eve checks if the disconnected player is player-flagged, which he is, and sets the timer to the 15 min.
1c) There are hostiles on the gate. They are particularly
bad at the game and don't manage to get a point on the freighter before it's emergency warp goes off. However they have a prober alt who manages to get to the freighter's emergency warp spot and get a scram on it. Too bad, unless they have the dmg to kill it in the 1 min they're s.o.l.
The only other changes that would need to be added then would be making it so attempting to log on an alt on the same account wouldn't make the ship insta-disappear and possibly a longer timer on capitals.
*edit* It's been awhile since I wrote that original post. I'll update it to reflect ideas here.
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Posted - 2008.03.13 23:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jason Travers
Let me sound like a goonie.
Bring more ships and kill faster problem solved. ROFL
Anyway sounds like the same manipulation of the mechanics used by gankers in highsec. Why should they fix it when they wonĘt fix the other. Lowsec isnĘt suppose to be a one shot one kill area just as highsec isnĘt suppose to be totally safe either. If you cannot kill your prey bring more guns and kill faster or maybe sit cloked.
On the one hand I'm glad the links in my sig actually draw people to the thread.
On the other hand, I wish people would read, reflect and respond rather than just respond.
You're the first person in this thread to imply that people should always move in groups large enough to kill a freighter in under a minute or not be able to kill the freighter at all. Congradulations.
The difference between log off abuse and suicide ganking is intention. Players are intended to be able to suicide gank in high sec. Players are not intended to be able to avoid combat by exploiting a mechanism designed to protect people who legitmately get disconnected.
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Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:53:00 -
[13]
I don't think it favors anyone really. Basically if you were going to get tackled coming through a gate you now get tackeled, even if you log off.
If you weren't going to get tackled, they have a minute to get you.
If you were previously flagged, you still have to wait on your flag.
Seems to keep the status-quo up while removing the exploitable bit.
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Endless Subversion
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Okotomi Anki
Edited by: Okotomi Anki on 20/03/2008 15:44:52
Hi Endless. You probably remember me from your other thread.
I don't know a solution to the whole logoffsky problem, but for this particular issue with freighters logging while jump-cloacked - i do.
Sorry, i'm not going to disclose the tactic because i want MORE jerks logging off in freighters, not less. But you can easily figure it out yourself, you only need one extra ship in your gang wich will be pretty useless for anything besides stopping logoff freighters. Works in 0.0 and lowsec. Well, we don't actually tried it in 0.0, but it should work there too.
Just DON'T TELL ANYONE what you will undoubtedly find, please. Spread the word about this logoff travelling method instead  , and your hangars will always be full of loot.
Again, sorry for not sharing, i want to abuse my 'discovery' to the fullest extent possible, before it will become common knowledge 
They don't warp to a SS. They just disappear, so it's not a scan alt, they can't be bumped to stop them aligning and the amount of warp scramble you have on them doesn't matter. Additionally if they log onto an alt on the same account as they log off the freighter it pretty much instantly disappears.
So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you're wrong. If you do have a method, I'd love to know, but I don't think current game mechanics support you here.
Self Destruct & LogOffs |
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Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.31 23:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: El Mauru
Edited by: El Mauru on 29/03/2008 15:10:04
This has happened to me several times as well :-/
IMHO it could be solved by the disconnected ship becoming immobile and cloaked for 5 minutes- during that time it can be decloaked and agressed for the usual 5 minute timer-
It stays on directional scan and can be probed out.
Oh, and decloaking can only happen by player ships :-P
That should imho take care of things
I don't think CCP would support a mechanic where any mission runner could d/c instead of losing their ship.
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Club Bear
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:04:00 -
[16]
No other solutions for this? No one likes people abusing this mechanic, surely we can come up with some suggested solutions for CCP to help with this.
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Club Bear
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Posted - 2008.04.24 18:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kruel
I can't believe people are seriously defending this "intended game mechanic". If logging off is intended to escape nonconsensual PVP, then how come only the large buffer ships can do this?
To the OP, /signed. It's a simple fix for a growing problem.
I've got a thread on this and on self-destructing Kruel. It's amazing the resistance people have to changing these issues. To me they seem such blatant imbalances allowing players to exploit mechanisms in place for different reasons to avoid pvp.
I really think it's a desire to advance personal goals rather than a desire for balance.
Motherships and titans are a special liability. I'm not well versed on their log off restrictions. Surely you could start your log off at a friendly pos with no player aggression.
That'd mean they'd have to aggress you while you were in your pos shield or only have 1 minute to kill you.
Logging off in space would be slightly more dangerous, they'd have to be on grid with you, wait for you to logoff and then agress your ship. Then they'd still only have 15 minutes to get you.
That seems pretty balanced to me. |
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